The Author Wheel Podcast
The Author Wheel Podcast
Embracing Diversity in Indie Publishing: Insights from the 20 Books to Vegas Conference
Bold statement: indie publishing is a maturing industry.
A few weeks ago, The Author Wheel attended the 20Books to 50k conference in Las Vegas, and in this episode we're going to talk about our experiences.
Our biggest takeaway? There are dozens, possibly hundreds, of different strategies for author success. Moreover, the very definition of success depends on the author and what they're looking to get out of their writing. With nearly two thousand writers in attendance, we saw it all, and talked about most of it.
The landscape of publishing is changing once again. We highlight successful indie authors who have secured contracts, expanded their reach through film and audio book adaptations, and built impressive careers. Understanding your genre, treating your books as a catalog, focusing on your target audience, and building a growth mindset are critical.
Listen in to learn more!
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Greta Boris:
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Megan Haskell:
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Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel podcast. I'm Greta Boris, USA Today Bestselling Mystery Thriller. Author.
Speaker 2:And I'm Megan Haskell, award-winning fantasy adventure author, and together we are the Author Wheel. So this week we're skipping our normal intro and diving right into our discussion of the 20 books to Vegas, 20 books to 50 K Vegas conference that we went to at the beginning of the month, and this is a really exciting topic for us because, well, it was just a great event. Quite honestly, it was eye-opening and inspiring and motivational and we're going to talk all about it and it's kind of our biggest news anyway. So we kind of just figured we'd dive in. We're really excited about it. So there you go. So, greta, why don't you start? You have not actually been to an indie author conference before. You've been to traditional conferences, but not indie. So what was your overall impression, what did you think of the con and are you going to go back with me next year?
Speaker 1:Well, it blew me away. I have to say it totally blew me away. My overall biggest impression was how much the indie author industry has matured the days of I'm just going to throw my buck up on Amazon that they are over.
Speaker 2:Long gone.
Speaker 1:Long, long gone. I mean this is a it's really become a mainstream business you know an industry. It's a true industry. I mean, what was there? Like 2,000 people there.
Speaker 2:I think it was like yeah, I think it was like 1,800, something like that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and which is absolutely huge. You know, maybe Thriller Fest gets that many people, but a lot of the traditional conferences are much smaller than that. And then just the vendors that were there were pretty impressive, like big companies that make you know that survive, serving the indie author community Well and traditional. But that was another thing too, that there were companies that have traditionally served traditional publishing. There was a lot of traditionals in there but now they're reaching into the indie author community and I like it was pretty impressive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, actually. So let's kind of walk through it a little bit. So the first day we got there Monday morning and we did travel together. So when I say we, I literally mean we we got there Monday morning. And the first day on Monday it was just an industry expo, which I thought was, you know, really kind of interesting. It was a whole day. Everybody had set up, you know, their tables, exhibition hall style kind of event, and it was a full packed ballroom, like it was, and it was a big ballroom too, yeah, and it just completely filled with tables, and so everybody from Plotter was there to audiobook publishers like Dreamscape and Tantor Draft, to digital was there, yeah, amazon, amazon was there.
Speaker 2:Amazon had a huge presence.
Speaker 1:Yes, they really did, and they ran all kinds of workshops which, I'm sorry to say, I was going to go to some, but I didn't make it because there was just so many workshops to choose from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but and then all sorts of other new tools and technologies and service providers. You know people offering ads help or book marketing help, or you know all sorts of different things. So there's a whole industry now around the indie author industry which is kind of this like mind blowing kind of a thing.
Speaker 2:I mean I have gone to this conference before, but it was before COVID, so it's been about you know four or five years since I've gone, and when I went they did not have the industry expo thing at all, it was just the author events. And so it's definitely even just in the last five years it has definitely expanded and matured and turned into a much bigger, more impressive and, I would argue, more beneficial event even than it was five years ago.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't speak to what it was five years ago, but I can say that it was very beneficial for anybody who is really thinking about making writing and publishing an actual career versus a hobby. Even for hobbyists I think it would be fun, but I think just because it'll just blow you away all the toys out there to play with.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just a lot of stuff out there which is really fun. Well, that's actually one of the things that I found so interesting, though, is that there were a lot of people there, obviously, who were making six figures from their fiction, or wanted to be making six figures from their fiction, but there were also a lot of diversity in the kinds of authors that were there and the strategies that they were actually using to get their books out there. So I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I actually think it's a conference for writers now and writers who want to reach readers. So, whether or not that's a full time income, day job kind of a thing, or whether that's more of a hobbyist but hey, I'd like to sell and have a supplemental income, kind of a thing or just reach readers, I think all of those goal sets are served and becoming maybe not talked about yet, but there's an awareness that I think is growing around that diversity of strategy, diversity of goals, diversity of author personalities and skill sets and all of that stuff which, of course, I harp on all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, we harp together. I also thought it was interesting. You know, there's this, this idea that the only people who make money writing and publishing their own bugs, the only Indian authors who make money are romance. Well, hello, that is not true.
Speaker 1:There are people from every single genre, including nonfiction writers there, yeah, and that are that are making an income, making a living from their books. And that is really encouraging too, because sometimes sitting at home and just looking at the internet and this, and that we kind of get the woes me, doom and gloom. Publishing is dying. People don't read anymore. You know, everybody's watching Netflix. They're not going to read your books, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, hello, I don't think that's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't. I don't think it is. I think a lot of that that Netflix binge mentality. It does negatively impact the traditional industry that traditionally published authors and books, because unless you already have a massive backlist, you know your readers can't binge if you're only publishing once a year which is you know, a drop out for people like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, that's whatever.
Speaker 1:They can binge your books in like 10 years.
Speaker 2:I'm building that back.
Speaker 2:You're building the binge, but but I do think that I mean, I think that's the, the authors that are doing very, very well purely on fiction, purely financially. I can't speak to their, you know author sustainability or all of that other stuff, not the physical health, any of that but the ones that are doing very well are the ones that have bingeable series or they have bingeable backlists. You know you do get. You do get some that knock it out of the park with their debut and and just kill it and that's amazing. But on the whole, on the average, if that's what you're looking for, you got to work on building that backlist.
Speaker 1:That was definitely a takeaway For me. Before I talk about that was something else I wanted to mention, because we can get into that a little bit, a little bit more a bit. But there's a bigger difference between going to traditional conferences versus this indie author my first indie author conference, as you, as you, mentioned. There used to be this thought and it's still out there a little bit in traditional publishing that if you publish indie then you will never be taken seriously by the traditional publishing world, like you're just ruining your chances for ever getting a traditional deal. Well, that was blown out of the water. This was it two weeks ago. Now I lost a week because I came home with COVID, yeah, so that was just wrong.
Speaker 1:I mean, there were a couple of traditional publishers small, granted smaller publishers, but still there were a couple of traditional publishers there I'd say at least three that were looking to pick up in the authors. There was also the traditional extra kind of things like audiobook. Yeah, there was several audiobook companies that like Tantor, the one that I'm going to be working with. They also work with big publishing houses and big traditional. So they that that's, but they're working with both. Yeah, and that that is my, you know. My point is that this idea that somehow you've shamed yourself if you indie publishing, you know and cheapened yourself and that traditional publishers are never going to look at you is not true. We watched and we won't mention names, but we watched a woman who is very successful indie published author and verbally negotiate a contract with a trad, a trad publishing company, right in front of our little faces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. It was crazy and there were multiple similar stories like that of other authors at the conference who you know publish. Indie did well and we're either, you know, pitching new series to publishers, getting interest or even signing contracts for a new series, or even, you know, republishing old series. But I think that's kind of what I don't know like. My point is that you know, you know you're not going to be able to do that. Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to be doing. Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to be doing. Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to be doing.
Speaker 2:Big, broad, vague impression is that this industry is maturing. With that maturity is coming, actually, for once, less black and white thinking and there is becoming more options and more variability and how people find success, how they define success and that hybrid mentality that I'm going to choose the best path for what I'm trying to do with this thing and then take that thing, whatever that IP is at, intellectual property and expand it into new avenues, whether that's audio books or whether that's film One of our good friends which we're hoping to have on the show next year, jonathan. He has done very well with eBooks and traditional fiction, not traditional published, but indie published fiction. He's done very well, built a huge audience and now he's getting into film and he's indie, producing his own films and his own web serials and things like that. It's amazing. He didn't wait for permission, he just went for it.
Speaker 1:Interestingly enough on that that once he started putting some of that up on YouTube. Now he has an entertainment lawyer who wants to work with him. Now he has a traditional agent who's pitching his work to Big 5 because they want it to be out in book form to build an audience and they're shopping around a contract for TV series and things like that. So I mean he's taken his indie stuff and he's mainstreaming it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a mindset shift to say you're an author instead of just saying I'm a writer, therefore I'm going to write a novel, therefore I'm going to publish said novel, the end. Now there's this whole different, shifting mindset where people are like, well, yeah, but I can also do this and I can also do that. No, for marketing, I'm going to try this and I'm going to try that. Maybe one thing works and the other doesn't, or because of the way I work, my skill sets, I can follow this path. Whatever it is, but it's thinking beyond just the novel, which is amazing to me. It's just amazing.
Speaker 1:I went to several workshops on foreign rights because that's something that really interests me too. My big takeaway from that is pitch a publisher. I don't want to do it myself, but there are people doing it themselves and doing really, really well. Yeah, there is an industry built up around that ways to do it people who will help you, translators, all the things. So it's just fascinating what people are doing, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I want to touch on one other thing here too is that it is a highly competitive market now. You can't just throw a book up on Kindle and expect to succeed, and expect to knock it out of the park and make a million dollars like the early days. That just doesn't work anymore.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So it is highly competitive to get eyeballs to get, which. That sounds awful, but it's kind of true to get visibility.
Speaker 1:It works for me. I like the mortician series, like the horse I don't know if you took that eyeball.
Speaker 2:I'm all right, all right. So to get eyeballs on your work, you have to get visibility. To get visibility, you need to know your market. You need to know your genre. That market is going to depend on that genre and the subgenre and your overall strategy. You really have to think this stuff through. So it's very competitive.
Speaker 2:But, especially at this conference, I feel like and maybe because of the founding mentality and how they built the conference over the years, I think correct me if I'm wrong that this is very different than the traditional cons, but the authors don't go there saying, trying to puff themselves up and be better than the person sitting next to them. It's not competitive between authors in that same way. Instead, it's actually the rising tides metaphor and that building of community and that helping one another, teaching one another, was really profound and prevalent throughout the conference. I don't think I noticed anybody really trying to be better than, or present themselves as better than, the person next to them. It was well, I have this skill set. Let me teach you this thing and you teach me something in return, and we're all going to work together to make this industry and these books better, which is so cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally think that that is true. I do think that probably because this happened to me a little bit here and there and it probably did happen to others that sometimes you just got around somebody who was super successful and it wasn't them. They were being lovely, whatever, but the feeling was, oh my gosh, I can never do what they did, or that little bit of awe.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I mean, that's every industry, isn't it? And thank God there are people that are doing that, because that's our own perspective. We can either look at them and go, oh, I'll never do that, or we can look at them and go, hey, they did it, it's possible.
Speaker 2:Therefore, maybe I can, and so but that was sort of it the growth mindset versus scarcity mindset.
Speaker 1:Exactly and honestly. It's true, a lot of the readers that the indie community is servicing, so to speak, are the whale readers, are readers who read a lot of books and, by and large, indie books are priced a little bit better than their traditional counterparts. So, other than the library system, which a lot of people who read, I read a lot of traditional books through the library system, but indie books are priced more competitively. So you just can't. I don't care if you write a book a month, you still can't write enough to service your readers, because some of those readers read a book a day. And no, there was one person there that I talked to who writes like a book a day.
Speaker 2:But he doesn't.
Speaker 1:I'm not all. I'm going to say we don't want the hate mail here, guys, because I wasn't excited about it. But he is there. He is using AI to write his books and that's going to be an interesting thing to see where that goes. I cannot imagine that those books are going to satisfy readers, but who knows something to see?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely something to keep an eye on. I don't want to go into that tangent of this discussion too much right now, but AI in general is something that we're going to have to be cognizant of, aware of and figure out what it means for the industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think. Anyway, yes, we'll save that discussion for a day when we have somebody who really knows what they're talking about and we will interview them on that, because Megan and I do not, I just that's.
Speaker 1:all I'm going to say is that I did have a conversation. Well, actually I listened to someone who talked about that and it was a little like oh my goodness, this is happening. Yeah, so moving right along. Other than that, I do think you are 100 percent right. There was just a really nice sense of community and people willing to help one another and teach one another and cross promote with one another. I have some really fun plans for cross promoting next year, that when I get my little tissue and gear and get it going.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I think the interesting thing as well for me was I actually didn't go to a ton of the courses.
Speaker 2:I went to a few and they were very informative and very helpful, but the vast majority of the courses or the actual workshops or whatever, were being filmed, so if you bought your ticket you could just watch the recording later. So for me this conference was all about community. It was all about those networking opportunities and hanging out with people in the little lounge salon area and sharing ideas or having a drink afterward and talking about what they're doing that's working really well for them right now and thinking for myself how is that possible to incorporate, Is it not? Does it fit my strategy, Does it not? What am I trying to accomplish? And kind of bouncing those ideas around in a community of very successful, very driven authors with really great ideas. You don't get that at home. You just don't Like even taking all the courses and all the learning in the world which I'm a number one learner, I love to learn you don't get that same impact as actually networking and talking with these people one on one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because everything's sort of theoretical when you're learning it. But when you actually are talking to people who have done this thing and are successful doing it, or they did this thing and they weren't successful doing it, I mean, just those conversations are really big, they're huge.
Speaker 1:They give you. It's a sorting out sort of a thing which, honestly, I think that this whole conference really did emphasize to me the importance of our Clarify, Simplify, Implement sort of a process that we are noodling around and trying to bring out to you, the listeners, in a more formal way so that people can actually be guided through these processes. Yeah, I think it's critical. Honestly, it's critical.
Speaker 2:That's why I came away and immediately started working. Well, I also was lucky enough that I did not get COVID, because I had it in the summer. I was lucky I got it early, I guess, anyway. But I immediately came away inspired to start my new sub-stack and start talking about these ideas and these concepts and the filter, really, that our system provides, because this Clarify, simplify Implement. It sounds easy, it sounds simple, but it's one of those things you have to practice over and over and over. I have so many thoughts and so many concepts and things I want to share and ideas that came out of this conference that fit within that structure. If you haven't already, go check out my sub-stack. Yes, it's called Clarify, simplify, implement. There will be a link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:I'm really glad that you're writing it because it's going to help us as you clarify your thoughts. It will help us simplify the way we want to present them to people and then we can implement it. It's just amazing, so I'm so glad you're doing that, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think it's going to be great. I do, I really do. I think it's going to be great. I already put together my topic list. I have this spreadsheet that I've got 25 or 30 posts already, topic ideas not outlined, because I just sit down and write. Anyway, at least my idea is I've got 25 or 30 already in the hopper ready to go. This is going to take me through at least the next few months. I can't write more than a couple of weeks, I don't think. But we're going to get there because I do think it's important.
Speaker 2:I think, going back to your point about being next to Jane Doe, author who's doing something amazing and incredible and being really, really successful and you look at that guy, I could never do that. I'm never going to be successful. That's the wrong mindset, because that's the wrong goal. I think using our system, using the Clarify, simplify, implement structure, you can figure that out. There's so much room in this industry, in this job, for all different kinds of authors, all different kinds of strategies and platforms. I think that's as the industry continues to mature. That's what's going to become.
Speaker 2:More and more apparent is that it's not a one-size-fits-all job more so than any other well, I can't speak to other creative industries, but at least more so than a corporate job. It is not one-size-fits-all. There is not a simple job description that you can do these tasks and you can get your next promotion. That's not the way it works. Understanding that you are not perfect, sign 타고 filter to cut through the overwhelm, to cut through those all brilliant, wonderful ideas that might work for Jane Doe but might not work for you. This is a filter to help you figure out what those what will work and what won't work hopefully so on.
Speaker 1:My final little personal takeaway from the conference was something that actually is that kind of thing Like I got inspired in a unique way. Well, I'll just tell you what it is. First, I drive my husband crazy with this like bill a big build up to what I'm going to tell you. First I'm going to tell you about what I'm going to tell you, then I'm going to tell you Anyway don't bury the lead, greta, just say it.
Speaker 1:So very in the lead, I know it's just terrible. So I heard a very, very, very successful cozy mystery writer say to think of your work as a catalog versus as just individual titles or even as series. You know, and I loved that, it just hit me like we. For me, I felt like that's what I want to do. I want to create this immersive world that is interconnected. So, whether it's the will soon be repackaged seven deadly sin series or it's my mortician series or some spin off series ideas that I have, that they have this interconnected world. That was a sort of a clarity moment for me, that big takeaway for me, and so much so that when I finished the six book in the mortician series, I actually have a scene where I wrote in the detective from the seven deadly sin series she just entered the thing. It was like, oh my gosh, come on in girlfriend.
Speaker 2:Join this.
Speaker 1:You're all in the same world. This is great. So that was a big takeaway for me, and I'm bringing it up because you don't entirely agree, which is the wonderfulness of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, so I don't. I mean I think it can work. I think absolutely. For some authors that is a beautiful and wonderful way forward, but not all personalities, not all brains work that way and sometimes your creative inspiration is going to take you off into a new direction. And so I also feel like that, yes, that can work, but also it can work to have separate series, but you still, I do think, need a unifying theme. We'll call it, and I don't mean that like a traditional, like book theme or literature in a literary sense. I mean it more as a career sense. I mean this is why we have the Seven Days Declarity mini email course which you can take for free, link in the show notes. But what that does is it gives you that North Star, that overarching theme for your career, for your catalog.
Speaker 2:Again, thinking of your books like a catalog. I do like that concept, I just take it a little bit more vague rather than being interconnected series and spin-offs and everybody should be doing this, because not everybody should but I do think that having a theme, having a way to unify your books for readers so that they know what they're going to get from you as the author, as the person who is bringing them this experience. And I do think to kind of end our little discussion here a little bit, I think that's kind of. The key is finding the way to bring readers an experience, and they always should know what they're going to get. And that's how you can use pen names to differentiate. If you want to write in two completely different genres, like if you're writing thrillers on one side and you're writing sci-fi on another, then have two different pen names, have two different unique pieces of yourself. Unify each of those pieces under a theme so that readers know what they can get.
Speaker 2:And then yeah, if it's spin-offs, great, that is a spectacular strategy. But if it's just theories that have similar types of characters, similar tropes, similar literary themes or ties in the genre, however, you can think of that catalog as being your author presence to give readers an experience, I think that's finding the way to make that work for you, is what's going to ultimately hopefully bring satisfaction and success for a career-minded author.
Speaker 1:Yes well lots of caveats there, yeah okay, so, but you all are going to hear that word catalog from me a lot in 2024, I think, because it was just like, yeah, brain blew up, so anyway, that's my sound effects. Okay, so there was one more thing that we were going to say that this was actually the last official 20 bucks Vegas conference. But it is being taken over new management which you will hear more from us as in 2024. And it'll be called author nation and we are just excited that I think it's going to have a facelift because that, as we said, are in the beginning. That this industry has really, really matured in the runaway train is fabulous, but I could see it being a bit of a runaway train and getting some new people with some new perspectives and maybe a little more energy, a fresh energy, I should say, to kind of corral. The runaway train will probably be really, really exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the little bit that we know so far. I am very excited to see where it goes, where they take it and how they change it for next year. I mean, I know some people are really worried about it, that there's a lot of concern that it's going to lose some of its indie feel or that community feel. But I do think that they're they're trying very hard not to lose that but rather to take that and expand it and be and move it into the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like organize it. Yeah, even it's like, yeah, the indie feel is great, but but it was a little overwhelming for a person coming in their first time, yeah, and I think if it was a little bit better organized in terms of tracks and you know those kinds of things, it will make it easier for people to navigate and new people to navigate, yeah, and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. So I'm excited we will share more information as we have it for the conference. I think at this point I am definitely planning on at least attending next year and we'll see, if you know, we have other opportunities. We're hoping there might be other opportunities in a very variety of areas to participate, but I am at least planning for sure on being there. Greta, I know you got covid.
Speaker 1:Well, I I love the idea, and especially if we have some opportunities and they will definitely be there, and if I am going back I'm going to be vexed all over the place. I got a flu shot, so I didn't get the flu and that was nice. But I will get covid. I'll get the flu shot, I'll take my vitamins, I'll do juice fast. I'll do it all. Yeah, that was just not fun to come home.
Speaker 2:I felt like I got hit by a truck, so yeah quite a few, quite a few people we know did end up with covid. So it is important to take care of yourself, so keep that in mind too.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:But hopefully it'll all work out and we'll maybe see y'all next next year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so anyway, last word, I keep saying that and we keep talking, which is so difficult for us. Anyway, as a result of the conference, we have met a lot of amazing people like really, really cool people, and so, and of course, we chatted them up whenever we had the opportunity and, consequently, we have some verbal promises from some fabulous guests for you guys that have told us they're coming on the show in 2024. So we're going to be actually scheduling them and when we have them actually scheduled, we can start announcing who.
Speaker 2:But it is going to be awesome, I am so, looking forward to it, it is going to be a good year, very good year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so if you have not subscribed, oh seriously, people, what are you waiting for? Just just just hit that little button, that little follow button, subscribe button, so that you don't miss anybody coming out, All these amazing people.
Speaker 2:And if you do like the show, please leave us a review. On whatever platform you pick up your podcasts from, we love to see those, obviously, and it does help spread the word for, hopefully, something that's informative and entertaining for you to share it with other writers in the world.
Speaker 2:Yes please, yeah. And then one last thing for me to. I mentioned it earlier and I'll mention it again, but I did just start my brand new sub stack. So if you want to hear more of my thoughts and it's pretty much going to be me Greta's going to be chipping in when she can, but I am, I am running with this one.
Speaker 1:I'm working on my catalog.
Speaker 2:So if you want to hear more of my thoughts on writing publishing and our clarify, simplify, implement system, make sure you pop over there and check it out. I will put the link in the show notes, along with the link to our seven days to author clarity Email mini course, which is free when you sign up for our list. So until next time, stories rolling.
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